[00:00:00] Emily Tan: On today's episode, I get to talk to Vera from the State of Mine podcast. Fun fact, her podcast started as an internal channel at Microsoft where she works. Given how incredibly helpful it has been for her peers, she was encouraged to make it accessible to the public. The cool thing is Microsoft totally backs the project.
[00:00:22] Emily Tan: What an encouraging way to show your employees that you stand by a shared value. I talked to Vera about her journey in accepting her challenges to living this advocacy throughout her personal and professional experiences from different parts of the world, how she uses podcasting as a way to give back to community.
[00:00:42] Emily Tan: We also talk about navigating vulnerability within the workspace, and if you are interested in hearing from more people in, check out our podcast. I'll link in the show notes. Guys, this is the first OG theme episode back after having dedicated the past nine episodes [00:01:00] to men on The Tackling Minds podcast.
[00:01:02] Emily Tan: In case you missed it, we have been focusing on topics like mental fitness and emotional resilience for the sake of men. I invite you to check those episodes out, and hey, if something resonates, let me know. Get in touch through Instagram or Apple Podcast reviews or the contact page on our website - tacklingminds.com.
[00:01:25] Emily Tan: I'm glad you're here.
[00:01:30] Emily Tan: Vera, we were just talking about stories and how every story has a starting point. So I am very curious. You are a person full of stories. I've heard you on Talk with Trace podcasts, and I got the opportunity to be on your podcast and we've exchange messages, you know, back and forth as well. And I have a sense that this isn't just you roll outta bed and it's, it, it's just that.
[00:01:58] Emily Tan: It came from [00:02:00] somewhere deep, somewhere deep, that you had to go yourself and face. And it's not easy. It doesn't sound easy. So question is, how did you come to identify your story? Yeah.
[00:02:13] Vera: Thanks for, for the question, Em. And, and thanks so much again for, for inviting me today.
[00:02:17] Vera: Um, I have a lot of stories. You're, you're right. Um, but I'm, I'm assuming you're looking for the story around on mental health, so I'm just gonna focus on that.
[00:02:26] Emily Tan: Well, not necessarily. I think a lot of of stories are interconnected. I don't think they need to be so compartmentalized and it is what makes, it's what makes you who you are.
[00:02:38] Vera: Yeah. That, that's true. True. So I can, I can give a bit of a background first, maybe. Mm-hmm. on who I am. So, um, 32, uh, Dutch. I am, uh, from the Netherlands, born in Rotterdam. Uh, I've always loved traveling. I'm married to a fantastic guy called Tony. Uh, we've been together for 11 years.
[00:02:57] Vera: I've lived in the Netherlands, Australia, and now in [00:03:00] Singapore. Uh, and I actually work in the technology industry. I work for Microsoft. And yeah, besides having a fantastic childhood, actually a fantastic life, I've also gone through some hardship in life as we all have. Um, and that's, I guess, has really triggered my passion to advocate for mental health.
[00:03:20] Vera: Hence why I now also run a podcast for which I invited yourself to join me as well to share your story. Um, and I, as part of my podcast, I share other people's stories to help normalize the conversation around mental health and, and, and share different situations that people go through.
[00:03:37] Vera: So to sort of bring it back to your question, you know, what is, what is your story? I think it's really focused on the health of my parents. So when, when I was young, my mom actually had cancer. Um, I was quite, quite young. I probably was like six or something like that when she was sick. [00:04:00] Luckily, she recovered.
[00:04:01] Vera: Um, but after that my father got cancer. Um, at the time I was probably 12. He was sick for six years. Unfortunately, he did not recover, so I, I lost him when I was, uh, was 19. Um, and then a few years after that, my mom got cancer again. Uh, luckily she recovered again. So obviously, um, yeah, that was tough because, uh, in, in like, I guess my whole childhood, I've always had a parent that was sick.
[00:04:31] Vera: And that has always impacted my life. However, I've had a very privileged youth, uh, I actually have nothing to complain about. But you know, as I got older, I did sort of start noticing that I did, had some unresolved, I guess, trauma in many ways. Um, and with Covid that actually got triggered a lot.
[00:04:56] Vera: So when Covid happened, I shared this story because I got quite some [00:05:00] anxiety also from how are other people dealing with this? I've always had that fear of other people getting sick, um, of obviously my mom getting sick again. And at the time when Covid happened, I was living in Australia, uh, and my mom is alone in the Netherlands. So that was one of the things. And I shared my story within, uh, Microsoft at the time.
[00:05:21] Vera: And that just went viral. Uh, I had no intent, uh, to really have like a story that would go viral, but somehow it was very relatable for a lot of people. So once I shared that, I received a huge amount of people reaching out to me, starting to thank me for sharing my story. And I think the most remarkable thing about that was that they started sharing their story with me.
[00:05:45] Vera: And even though we were, we are colleagues and we were qual colleagues, uh, you know, it's, it was still remarkable to me that they shared such personal stories with someone they hardly knew. So for me, that was really [00:06:00] sort of a trigger point. Like, we really have to normalize these conversations because it's very normal to talk about some trauma that you've gone through.
[00:06:07] Vera: And, I mean, I actually just took the trauma that I, I had. Which is very much related to the health of my parents, but obviously there's more moments of trauma in everyone's life. Um, so hence why I wanted to advocate for mental health. So I guess that's in a nutshell, uh, a bit of my story, and that's how I really got into, uh, yeah, advocating for her mental health.
[00:06:28] Emily Tan: I find that so interesting that it kind of started at work. I am drawn to how you advocate this amongst peers at work. The perception of talking about the hard stuff that is non-work related at work seems to get a bad rap, like people might think, I don't, I'm not gonna talk about that stuff. I'm gonna be seen or perceived as someone who is weak or unprofessional or, I'm not meant to bring my emotional [00:07:00] baggage.
[00:07:00] Emily Tan: It, I think it's almost as if they go far into the extreme of, if I talk about this at work, I have to talk about all of it. I can't just talk, talk about 10% of it or frame it in the way that that shares the look, this is what I'm going through, hence why I might feel a little off, but rest assured I'm still remaining committed to my work, you know, et cetera.
[00:07:21] Emily Tan: In your experience and your own belief on how we set boundaries at work, how was that for you prior to sharing that story at work.
[00:07:32] Vera: Yeah. And it's a good question and I totally recognize, you know, your, your sort of concerns around that. And unfortunately, it's a very valid, I guess, concerns still today that people are uncomfortable with showing that vulnerability in a, in a professional setting.
[00:07:47] Vera: And I wouldn't say that I've never had that feeling of uncomfortness, um, of, of feeling uncomfortable. Um, but I think my personality, I've always been [00:08:00] quite myself and maybe more comfortable than others in sharing aspects of my life that other people do not. Again, as I mentioned earlier, I really had no intent to overshare or to share my story in a way that would, you know, get perceived in a specific way.
[00:08:22] Vera: So I just shared my story as, as, as it is not knowing how raw and vulnerable it was. And I think that for me was really an eye-opener to sort of see like, oh wow. Apparently it's, it's very strange that I shared this so openly. And I do think I showed parts of that before I shared my story like that.
[00:08:43] Vera: Um, in just the way I operate. I'm someone who's not afraid, you know, to, to say that something makes me uncomfortable or if I'm nervous about something or if I need help. So I am quite outspoken in that sense. I think that's also culturally maybe more in the Dutch culture than, for example, in Asian culture.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] Vera: Um, but now that I've had many of these conversations, it did make me even more comfortable and I think it's, it builds a skill where you just show more vulnerability, which I think is a very positive thing and should be a skill in any corporate to be honest, any leader in any company, big or small, should be able to practice vulnerability because I think it's, it's not only great for your people, it's also just great for your company and it's proven to be good for your company because your people are more efficient, more effective.
[00:09:33] Vera: Um, they'll have like, their wellbeing will be better. So I think it's something hopefully which will grow across the corporate world.
[00:09:41] Emily Tan: Okay. So your personal experience, you've worked in the Netherlands, you've, did you work in Australia as well? Is that why you were in Australia at the time?
[00:09:50] Vera: Yeah.
[00:09:51] Emily Tan: And now you work in Singapore.
[00:09:52] Emily Tan: So the differences, I'm curious to hear what you observe as the differences when talking about , [00:10:00] non-work related stuff at work, especially when it might compromise your reputation and so on, especially when vulnerability might be involved.
[00:10:11] Vera: And there are different definitely differences, Em. So I would definitely say there are, um, I do think the pandemic has forced the blend of personal and professional life in every culture. So I have seen that here now as well. Now that I'm based in Singapore, where people are opening up more. I mean, you can't avoid hearing kids in the background in when you're in a call, right? Or people having to step out or whatever. So I guess that level of informality is sort of forced into our workforce.
[00:10:46] Vera: Which is from a vulnerability perspective, I think a good thing because that means that they will, people are more comfortable opening up and sharing a bit more about what is often really important to them because it's not [00:11:00] necessarily their work, it's how their family's doing, how their kids are doing, you know, how they're doing at, at their sports or anything else.
[00:11:08] Vera: So, um, I would say there's big differences still. Definitely. I see that still, I think Western culture, uh, you know, in Australia are, are, are a bit more open. in that sense. Um, although I don't wanna stereotype too much as well cause there's quite a lot of differences within cultures. Like I've spoken to some Singaporeans here who've been super open and vulnerable about their lives and, and what they do in the corporate world and how they blend.
[00:11:37] Vera: Um, well, the personal aspects with the, the, the, the more formal aspects of their, of their corporate life. But it is, I think in general, definitely still different.
[00:11:48] Emily Tan: Do you think it's also different, this practice of vulnerability, the practice of showing that you're human and that you can make mistakes? Do you think this is exclusive for leaders [00:12:00] and anyone who is not in the leadership role might not feel like they have the privilege?
[00:12:07] Vera: People feel maybe that that's the case. Mm-hmm. . But in reality, and I keep saying that as well, like you don't need to be in a leadership role to be a leader. Anyone can be a leader. It's just how you show up. Right? Um, and unfortunately we need leaders to lead by example, to make other people comfortable to do the same.
[00:12:29] Vera: Because if they show that something's okay, other people follow, that's just how we as a breed work. But when I've received feedback on my podcast, actually the most impactful stories are normal people that are not, you know, presidents of organizations or CEOs or whatever.
[00:12:49] Vera: It's the stories that are really vulnerable, which are normal people sharing what they go through in life, because I think people are looking for others to [00:13:00] share what they are going through so that they find something relatable so that they know they are not alone. So I think it's very important to have both, to have leaders speak up, but also as individuals to recognize that we might not have a leadership position or we don't call it like that, but it doesn't mean that we can't be a leader in this space.
[00:13:22] Vera: And hopefully people will start feeling more comfortable like that and opening up regardless of what their title is.
[00:13:28] Emily Tan: Yes, preach. I've always believed that leadership actually starts at home. Whether you witness it or whether you were kind of in that role. And it doesn't mean that it, it is exclusive to the role of a parent, kids, older brothers, older sisters.
[00:13:46] Emily Tan: What are you, an older sibling, even though if he has a younger sibling, you can't be a leader to your neighbor. So that leads me to health is interconnected. Personally for me, it's not just what you do in the [00:14:00] gym. It's not how you cook in the kitchen. It's not about what diet you're on, it is, it also encompasses sexual health, your spiritual connection, your financial health.
[00:14:11] Emily Tan: What is your relationship with money and how hindering is that? But mostly from what I learned from my own cancer experiences, the quality of our interpersonal relationships. So personally for you, and you've been through quite a bit with your parents, how has your relationship with your mom, as well as with your dad, influenced you strongly to the core and that journey?
[00:14:36] Vera: Yeah, it's, it's a good question and I think it took me a really long time to sort of see those moments in life as, as learnings, right? Because you at, at the time, you're just going through it and you're more angry and upset than actually seeing the positive of of it. But I think one of the things I learned is obviously gratefulness and that that might [00:15:00] sound very weird, but I'm super grateful.
[00:15:03] Vera: You know that my mom is healthy. Um, I'm super grateful, um, that I've had the time with my father, even though it wasn't as long as I obviously wanted to. But I think that reflection also, when you hear more stories, I mean, you're, you yourself have a story around this as well, right? Having been sick yourself.
[00:15:22] Vera: So I'm just super grateful that I'm healthy, my husband is healthy. So I think that's one of the things that over time you start seeing and that's, that really for me, took time to understand. And it goes beyond health. Obviously health for me and my husband is actually the most important, important thing in our lives.
[00:15:42] Vera: But beyond health, it's also friendships. You have, you know, skills that you develop. I think I'm, I'm just super grateful for my life. Um, and I think, another one, and that's actually something that my father, uh, told me is better regret the things [00:16:00] that you've done over the things that you haven't done. And I love that.
[00:16:04] Vera: I just, I, I, and that's something always in the back of my mind, and I think that's together with the inspiration that my husband has has given me. That's probably one of the key reasons why I keep challenging myself, why I keep doing new things, why I lived across the world. Because every time when I do things that are uncomfortable, I'm like, well, I re I, I better do it and regret it than not do it.
[00:16:31] Vera: And always wonder, right? So, It's, it's a small sentence that he once said to me, but it always stuck with me. And especially now that he's not here anymore, obviously you reflect on those things more, right? So I think that's, that's a, that's a second thing that, uh, I would say are definitely some of those key learnings as I reflect on, on what I've been through like, yes, that's something I'll take away forever.
[00:16:55] Emily Tan: What's the last thing you did that you felt really uncomfortable doing?
[00:17:00] [00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Vera: I guess from a big perspective, it was doing my podcast publicly. That was super scary. I was doing it internally for Microsoft, but uh, I got asked to do it public. So I think that for me was like a big deal.
[00:17:14] Vera: Cause I was like, wow, I'm not sure if I wanna, you know, do this publicly. But, um, I think that was definitely a big thing. Another big thing, um, is, you know, seeing my husband train for triathlons. He, he's really, he pushes himself a lot and that, that makes me just super proud, you know, and to see how he drives his passion for physical health.
[00:17:38] Vera: So I think it's a variety of things and, and all. And actually, and you know this, I'm pregnant, which is obviously another major moment in my life, which is very uncomfortable, but super exciting at the same time. So it's really a variety of things. Um, that's come to me. And I'm pretty sure now that I'm expecting a little boy in April that there will [00:18:00] be much, much more coming my way, which will be uncomfortable and new and challenging.
[00:18:06] Emily Tan: Right, for sure. I've had many friends who I witnessed their priorities just completely change with, with no hesitation, no friction either. It was just like, boop, that's it. I'm doing this now and I'm cool with it. I'm happy with it. This is my purpose. Has that started? This the re-shifting of priority, obviously yes.
[00:18:29] Emily Tan: Logistically, but internally, your mind, your, your identity, how you identify yourself, all of that. How has that started to shift?
[00:18:38] Vera: This is gonna be the most precious, you know, human that Tony and I will have. So definitely priorities will, will shift. At the same time. I do find it early to answer that question because I think it really depends.
[00:18:53] Vera: I would love to keep my life normal and not get too obsessed by my kid, you know? And make [00:19:00] sure that I will be able to still go out and have coffees with friends and host dinner parties at the same time. I've heard so many mixed stories about that. It also just really depends on your little one. You know, if he or she sleeps well, you know, if they're everything, if he or she is healthy.
[00:19:17] Vera: So I'm hoping we can continue with our lifestyle as is. Obviously with the necessary adjustments, but I'm also quite open and comfortable if things need to change and it will will be quite different, which I'm sure it will be. So for now, I'm sort of, I'm gonna try and be comfortable with not knowing and comfortable of just letting it happen.
[00:19:43] Vera: Uh, again, this might sound easier than it is, and it definitely is easier than it is because I'm sure I will be very controlling at times and wanting to know things at times, but I'm gonna try and really let go of it, mostly because I know a lot of this I can't plan, and a lot of this is out of my control, [00:20:00] so I'm just gonna go with the flow.
[00:20:02] Vera: And, um, hopefully remind myself often when the moment is there to stay grounded, relax, and all will be okay.
[00:20:10] Emily Tan: Dude, you're only human, right? And you know what? That in itself sounds like an important skillset. The ability to recognize what you cannot control and the ability to allow yourself to surrender, to change and adapt accordingly.
[00:20:25] Emily Tan: Stay flexible, but you know where you're headed, at least still. You mentioned earlier that. You had learned a lot of different skills on how to tackle challenging moments, challenging times, and it's not just about what is happening in your environment or situation. It is how your body is responding to it and reacting to it.
[00:20:47] Emily Tan: Could you share some of the skills that you have picked up over time, and maybe these are also skills that you have been sharing with others on your podcast and with with the people at work and people are in your life.
[00:20:58] Vera: Yeah, definitely. And I [00:21:00] think there's two big ones, um, which I try to practice, uh, a lot to sort of stay healthy, both physical and mentally.
[00:21:08] Vera: And I think the first one is, staying positive again. Uh, and that sounds very easy, but it's not always easy, especially not when you're not in a good mindset or when you're not feeling great. But also, as I've spoken to a lot of people on my podcast, I think there's a really a theme where people are just so optimistic and positive.
[00:21:29] Vera: And that they help them get through things. So for me, it's something I remind myself of so frequently to say, Vera, when I'm stressed out, just, you know, be positive, take a step back, let go. It's not that they're not that important. So I think that's definitely the number one is optimism and, and being positive.
[00:21:50] Vera: Um, and then the second one, which is also a big theme that comes up every time when I talk to people is your support network. So people around you are [00:22:00] so important and doesn't mean you need to have a huge amount of people around you. For me, I think personally, maybe if that's what you like, but for me it is quality over quantity.
[00:22:12] Vera: So for me, the people around me are extremely important to ensure they keep me grounded. They, they, you know, they're there when I need someone to listen to or someone to talk to. And they really help you through situations. And this can be your family, this can be your friends, and yeah.
[00:22:31] Vera: I think having that support network and not underestimating it is just really good. And again, this goes beyond just mental health. It's also physical, right? I always say surround yourself with people who are better than you. And I truly believe this because that's how you grow. So same for example, when it's endurance sports, you know, when you wanna train, and I know you are also someone who's really into staying fit, you know?
[00:22:58] Vera: And, and, and [00:23:00] healthy. So if you surround yourself with people that are better than you are, you will pull yourself up to them. And I think that's a good thing in life. So I, I would say definitely your support network and staying optimistic and positive.
[00:23:16] Emily Tan: Okay. You talk about being positive and there is a pattern, a trend, a theme, a concurrent theme throughout the guests that you've talked to on your podcast, how can you differentiate blind positivity and pragmatic positivity? Well, for example, I watched, I was watching a documentary yesterday on clinically depressed people and how they've been on anti-depressant. They've, they've seen psychiatrist, psychologists, life coaches.
[00:23:44] Emily Tan: There are something seemingly unchangeable in their brains or how they perceive things. So not to go to the far extreme of, these are really rare cases, or maybe they are more common than we hear of, cuz we don't hear about these things. But for some [00:24:00] people they almost get adverse to the term - be positive.
[00:24:05] Emily Tan: They almost need to, to highlight - I want to be positive, but tell me how I can be positive in this situation, in that situation. Now, personally for me, I see it as a perspective. Shift as opposed to "Hey, just wear a shirt". And that says, be positive and everything for you. One for how you have used this, this strategy to overcome the times in your life and the challenging moments and what you observe from your guests. How did they present positivity?
[00:24:38] Vera: Yeah. And I was one of those people as well, right? Um, that if someone would say, yeah, be positive, I would, I would really get an maybe almost annoyed by it. Like, yes, of course you need to be positive and optimistic. So many people tell you that. Also in corporate worlds, you know, people tell you that no one wants, you know, wants you to complain.
[00:24:55] Vera: They wanna hear the good things, right? And so I completely understand where, [00:25:00] where you're coming from. And I think it's, it's, as I mentioned, not as easy to just be positive, but I do think. Everyone has a way of lifting themselves up, whether that is talking to someone, uh, whether it is going for a run, reading a book, having a coffee, and I think if you sort of start recognizing that, like what really lifts you up as a person yourself up.
[00:25:25] Vera: That will help you bring you back into that mindset that you feel good in. So it doesn't necessarily mean you need to be overly optimistic and spreading your love with everyone. It just means you need to feel good about yourself and feel good about your mindsets, because then you're, I think, naturally more optimistic and I think being optimistic and positive all the time is a skill as well.
[00:25:48] Vera: I mean, it's not something we naturally always do. I think we try to feel good, but not always are optimistic about everything or positive. So I would say that is something also I [00:26:00] need to practice. Like I actually often notice that I, when I'm struggling with something that I can get too stuck in something.
[00:26:07] Vera: And then luckily I have Tony by my side, my husband, who then sort of pulls me out of that and says, Vera, it's not important. Or just disconnect, right? Or, you know, Hey, here, shall we play? Play a game of Wordle or whatever? And that really helps me.
[00:26:23] Vera: I'm not sure if I answered the question there, but I don't think it's necessarily about always being optimistic and positive. I think that's something we can try and create as a habit, because I do think it's the right mindset and thought process to have that, but I think it's more so finding those small activities or triggers for yourself that helps bring you back to a healthy mindset.
[00:26:49] Emily Tan: Forget needing to go to the extreme or envisioning that you have to be the extreme when doing something and tying back to when people hear [00:27:00] you have to practice vulnerability at work because of all these benefits and how it can help you. Some people might go right away to, I am not crying in front of my colleague, or I'm not crying in front of my boss.
[00:27:11] Emily Tan: You know, that's the extreme. Practicing positivity here does not mean that, oh, I'm just gonna close my eyes and say everything is fun and dandy and be positive. That's also blind positivity, not no need to go to the extreme. What I'm also hearing here is the heightened need for self-awareness, and we also hear, this is another trendy word, self-awareness, but what exactly does it mean?
[00:27:35] Emily Tan: Like personally for me, self-awareness has had its journey of it being difficult as well as great, but it's really difficult sometimes to be in the moment. when you are more self-aware of, oh, this, oh, he's doing that. Oh, I'm doing this. Oh, I'm feeling this. Sometimes it's kind of like, you know what? I just wanna be ignorant and just enjoy the moment.
[00:27:55] Emily Tan: But that in itself is, it's, it's, it's a whole shit show in a way. [00:28:00] So, self-awareness for you, what brings you back to, to reminding yourself, this is what I set out to do. Don't give up because you're so self-aware of people's negativity. Uh, you're very observant and, and perceptive. Like these, these are skills that we learn over time.
[00:28:17] Emily Tan: Cuz it sounds like you have a very good supporting network at work, at home with your friends and that gives you a lot more exposure to interacting with people, talking to different types of people and recognizing how different people communicate their, their different communication language. There are different love languages and that is, that is so awesome.
[00:28:36] Emily Tan: I think that's the one cool things about having a podcast and having the ability and, and being approachable by people as well. Anyway, going back to it, have you had a moment before where you felt really close to giving up on advocating for mental health or even doing the work yourself? And what brings you back to, to reminding yourself what's important to you?
[00:28:56] Vera: Self-awareness is hard [00:29:00] but's so important, and I am definitely not perfect. Let me just be very clear. I, I try to reflect and hearing feedback is sometimes very hard and I'm someone who often needs time to process it and then actually action on it or not. I, you know, don't have to action on all feedback you receive, but I do think self-awareness is, is very important when it comes to advocating for, for mental health.
[00:29:29] Vera: I think for me it, because I actually do the podcast as a side activity alongside my full-time job, so you're, you're, you're right. It's sometimes hard to just keep going because these are all extra hours that I put into and, and it's quite some work releasing every week, but as I look at myself as a wife, as a friend, as a daughter, as a colleague, one of the most important things for me is to make sure that the people around me are [00:30:00] happy and healthy.
[00:30:01] Vera: So if there's anything I can do to contribute to that and really give back to the community in a way, then I would be happy to do that. So that is why I keep going with the podcast. Uh, and that's why I keep advocating to talk about mental health, to be vulnerable and see it as a strength, because I think it really helps people.
[00:30:23] Vera: It also helps that, obviously I receive feedback from people on my podcast, uh, and you see that it is well received. Um, and it's, it's not just about growing because I actually don't really even care about those stats much. It's more about when I receive a message where someone was truly helped by a story that they heard, right?
[00:30:45] Vera: And I'm like, this is such, for me, such a small gesture. But for someone else, apparently this was such a huge moment of realization and and self-awareness that that is completely worth it to me. So I will, as long as I can, and I have the [00:31:00] bandwidth, uh, I will always try to keep advocating for mental health, whether it's via my podcast or maybe in different forums.
[00:31:07] Vera: But, um, yeah, I love, I love to use that as a way to give back to the community. One of the values for me is, is, is you know, give back more than you take. And I really try to practice that, uh, because I do think I, I have a privileged background and I have a privileged life, so where I can, I try to play my part again.
[00:31:28] Vera: I'm definitely not perfect and there's probably more I can do, but I, I do try in different ways. When you look at sustainability, when you look at mental health, I think those are areas where definitely Tony and myself are trying to do our best, you know, to really give back to the community, to our planet.
[00:31:49] Vera: So yes, you can definitely say that's one of our values,
[00:31:52] Emily Tan: You know, podcasts sometimes can be a space of just rambling and ranting, but I like how it's so [00:32:00] easy to go deep with you to go in, in depth. It doesn't, it doesn't feel like there's any friction or, you know, once you ask a question, you're like, mm, should I really have asked that?
[00:32:10] Vera: Maybe that's what happens with two podcast hosts, Em.
[00:32:15] Emily Tan: That is true. Well, I'm curious with the guests that you've had on your podcast, of course not everyone on the list are experienced speakers or podcast guests or podcast hosts themselves. So how do you find a way to connect with them? . I think this might be helpful for some people, not because they wanna start a podcast, but because they want to connect deeper with the people on their lives, but they don't know where to start. They don't know even know how to begin. And that might also have to do with how comfortable they are with themselves. So kind of twofold here.
[00:32:54] Vera: Yeah, and it's a good question because not a lot of people are comfortable going deep right away, so [00:33:00] you're completely true. I'm right on that. I think what helps for me, especially when it's, you know, around podcast recordings, I do have a quick 30 minutes call beforehand, um, to make sure that I have a high level understanding of the, of the story, but also maybe even more so to understand what would they like to cover or is there anything off limits?
[00:33:24] Vera: Because obviously people have things that they just are not ready to share. Right. It's, I think, very normal and people are very different as well, so I wanna be very respectful with my guests to make sure that the story that they share is, actually what they really wanna share, and that I don't go too deep or too shallow or whatever.
[00:33:42] Vera: So I try to really do the due due diligence there. So I think that helps. Um, but, but still, you, you notice that as well. Like I've had guests that really wanted me to stick to the, the bullet points that we agreed on, and they really wanted me to not deviate from that because that's what they thought through [00:34:00] beforehand.
[00:34:00] Vera: I, I don't have like a scripted way of podcasting, but I do give people a heads up on this is these are the topics that I, I would like to cover and some like me to really stick to that. Others are very open and free flow, so they already sort of give me that opening like, Hey, it's okay if you go deeper or ask follow up questions and maybe also naturally, I guess I have a, a skill to hopefully make people feel comfortable to, to share their stories and maybe my story in a way helps as well because I'm so open about some of the, the hardship that I've had in my life. So it's sort of test and try and, and and error.
[00:34:41] Vera: And I think as people start practicing vulnerability more, I would say to your earlier point, you don't have to overdo it, check in with one another. Like, how are you, how are you really? And then from there onwards, you just learn like, is someone actually comfortable to [00:35:00] have a follow up question, right? Because you'll, you'll know based on the response, if someone is actually open to progress that conversation and to go a bit deeper. You need to practice it, I guess, and also not give up after one try.
[00:35:13] Vera: Like you do, shouldn't just check in once and then wait for a year. If you feel there's something up, just try again a week later. Right. And if that's still the same response, that's fine. You don't have to push anything either. But I do think that continuously checking in with one another is a great sort of start to get the conversation going.
[00:35:31] Emily Tan: When you were describing the process on how to prep with your guest, I thought, you know what, wouldn't this be cool if we started that with some of the friends that we have in our lives whom we want to deepen our bond with? For example, it might be someone you grew up with and that's someone you grew up with, was only in a context of sports.
[00:35:50] Emily Tan: So when you meet up, obviously you only talk about sports or how you recover and really, you know, not surfacey stuff, but quite niche. And let's say if [00:36:00] you want to expand that friendship, but you don't know where to start.
[00:36:04] Vera: I think people also shouldn't underestimate, you know, the power of that vulnerability and the power of that connection that you can create.
[00:36:10] Vera: Because also in the corporate world, I have spoken to a few leaders on my podcast, um, who you typically don't talk to easily because they're, they're not that easy easily to approach. I've probably can, you know, created a stronger relationship with them in just those 30 or 60 minutes than colleagues that I've worked with for years, simply because we've gone quite deep on a personal topic and that just creates a bond, which is uncomparable to all those hours of meetings, talking about KPIs, about the business and everything else. So I think we shouldn't underestimate the power of having a deeper conversation, and that's why people hopefully will open up to it a bit more to create that connection and to really build up that relationship in a different way.
[00:36:58] Emily Tan: Guys, if you haven't [00:37:00] checked out Vera's podcast - State of Mind, I suggest you tune in right after this episode. Of course you are gonna come back to Tackling Minds, but ya, Vera, thank you so much for gifting us your time, your energy, your thoughts, your insights, and sharing real life experiences. You've had so many experiences pertaining to people as well as yourself, and I applaud you for keep doing what you're doing for sticking to it and also taking the time to recognize when you need a break yourself, when you need to tone it down. So this is going to be a life changing chapter for you, and I wish you all the best.
[00:37:40] Vera: Thanks so much Em, and thanks again for, for inviting me. I love what you're doing in the mental health space.
[00:37:45] Vera: You are really also for me, an inspiration. So thank you so much for everything that you do, and hopefully we inspired some people with our talk chat today.[00:38:00]