TM SM Men Love Forgiveness with Karina
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Emily Tan: [00:00:00] To actually forgive means to understand that we're all imperfect, that we all make mistakes. Those are the words of Karina Calver on her TED Talk. Today's episode on Tackling Minds, we have Karina with us and we go on the journey of why advocating for men's work is so important to us. How we unknowingly bring damaging behaviors into our relationships.

What holding space for someone can actually look like and the power of forgiveness, which is a title of her TED Talk. Guys, this episode is an example of how I wish we can practice deeper coffee chats. So grab yourself something warm, get cozy, and we're gonna go to the getter. I'm glad you're here.

Karina, what would you like [00:01:00] people to know about you and what are you currently passionate about?

Karina Calver: The not so serious stuff. I'm super goofy. So I love to laugh, that's for sure. And the more serious stuff would be I love to love, so one of the things that's really big for me is whether in the field of teaching, I always tell my students, I love you.

And, and they're like, you know, being Hong Kong kids, they're like, what? But now they're really used to the fact that I'll always throw in, I love you. And when it comes to counseling or coaching men, I'm all about making sure that they understand that not love per se, but having a healthy relationship with yourself and having a strong, loving relationship with your partner is really important. These are things that are really important to me, and that's kind of like my mission. And so in a, in a nutshell, that's kind of who I am as well. But the ultimate, it's, it's all about being able to bring impact [00:02:00] in the skill set or in the in what I believe to be important, right?

Because bringing meaning to life is important. Building strong relationship is important. Leaving a legacy in what I think is important, which is really, again, love having strong relationships to contextualize this being brown, being Indian. One of the things that's really important to me is ensuring that the brown communities worldwide understand that love is in love is important.

Cuz right now I, I feel that's changing, right? So I work with the Indian people, even more today than I've ever had. When it comes to hookup, when it comes to counseling and coaching, that's why the podcast too, right? Because it says too brown, which is the title, it is to talk about all the things that we shy away from that are tabooed there.

It's, you know, the whole in-law situation, the dowry system, rape will be discovered, will be talked about later on. So there are [00:03:00] a lot of things that, even sex for that matter. So I don't, I, I feel there is a need to address things that don't get addressed. That's why the podcast took form in the same way with coaching and counseling.

It's, it's about talking about things that people don't usually talk about in their relationship, and that that's why over the years they have issues and they're, they're considering divorcing, considering to be separated. It's because they don't know how to communicate. They don't have the tools to strengthen the relationship.

So it boils down to what am I passionate about. Love. What do I stand for? Love. And so I will do whatever it takes in the skillset that I have and the to, to bring that forward in, in the projects that I create.

Emily Tan: Do within relationships, there's a common pattern of loving a, a broken human, let's say, whether you're thinking like you're saving a, a woman, or you are loving a broken man, whatever [00:04:00] it is.

But is that really love or do you see your partner as a project? So I wanna know, I don't know, maybe that's something people need to really reflect on.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: But in, in your experience working with couples, when do you need to make that distinction and how do you help people make that distinction?

Karina Calver: That's a good one.

So when you are getting to know someone, right, and usually early stages of dating, that gets revealed because how someone responds to you emotionally, how available they are, how mature they are in dealing with whatever it is that you throw at them, right? You're gonna say stuff, it might trigger them. And how do they respond to the triggers will tell you whether they're ready for a relationship.

Now, if you take it on and say that, you know what, oh, I, I understand that they have really bad childhood, or their parents neglected them, and so you feel pity. Pity is not love, [00:05:00] but you look at it as love when it's not. And so you take that person on and becomes like your project because you wanna help the wounded person.

But the sad truth is we can't, we cannot help anyone unless they're willing to help themselves and then we can guide them. Sure. But no one can do your own inner work. Your healing journey is yours. So there are people who do date, people who are unhealed and not even aware that they have stuff that they have to sort out, you know, childhood wounds, they're not even aware!

But if you're someone who is aware that your partner has these things, but you're like, you know what, but they're a good person, or they went through so much and it's okay, but then you're losing out and they're not able to be their full potential because they cannot give you what you deserve and what you want because their pain is gonna hold them back.

When someone is hurting right? [00:06:00] They're gonna put themselves first, or they're gonna be reluctant to give so much, or they're constantly going to second guess how they should be. They're not gonna flow in, in the dynamic of the connection, and the person who's more awake or more healed is not gonna get what they want. So how is that a healthy relationship? It's not.

Emily Tan: You know what I also wonder is the person who finds himself in the position of loving the other person who is maybe less aware of their wounds, less heal, have done less work and had and has less practice in this, in this realm, does that say about the person who's giving the love or showing the love, that there's something there for us to look upon as well?

I definitely relate to that. When I reflect with upon my relationships in the past. I've definitely found myself thinking that, yeah, okay. Well he's like that because he was abandoned as a kid and he grew up in, in the foster system in [00:07:00] the US. That does something to your psyche. Then you realize you're not doing this person any good.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: by letting that be the reason why they're an asshole.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm. Exactly. We justify the fact that they had a bad childhood, but they haven't actually done anything to make the turn around. And so we still let the past be the reason for why they are the way they are. But the past is over and done with and they need to do the work.

But we then have so much compassion. We say, oh, but they went through that, but they went through that. It's done. Right? So why are we still holding the past as so important that it's okay for them to be an asshole, like you said.

Emily Tan: What does that say about us?

Karina Calver: That we're, we're kind at the wrong time, at the wrong person, at the wrong place.

Emily Tan: So it's not like may, maybe this is too general for everyone to say that. It's not like you have more to dive deeper within to understand why you're doing this. Is there another reason for it? Not to [00:08:00] overanalyze,

Karina Calver: I think,

Emily Tan: but to shift a different perspective?

Karina Calver: Well, one, it could be that you're just not, see, it's so nice to, you know, you almost feel heroic.

Emily Tan: Mm. The hero complex.

Karina Calver: Right. Yeah, exactly. If you're able to somehow get this one person to have this wake up call. And if it was you who got that person to wake up and realize, man, I gotta do the inner work, then you'll feel so good about yourself. Right? But that is an illusion. No one really can do that.

No one, the person did wake up and go, you know what? I can't believe I've been this way with you for all this time. It's because they had a realization. You could have been harping about that for years, but something hit them at their time. Not because of what you said at that very given moment. So then it goes back to you being kind and accepting of their past, thereby their current behavior.

It's not doing the relationship any good, [00:09:00] or rather it's not doing you any good. So ask yourself, where's your self respect? You deserve more. You deserve someone to treat you like you should be treated well, maybe if you want to go down the rabbit hole, ask yourself why you're lowering your standards.

Emily Tan: I think there's definitely a lot there, and it might sound like we're really just talking to the women within the relationship versus talking to the men, but

Karina Calver: Oh yeah.

Emily Tan: We're actually talking to anyone within the relationship who finds themselves in, in this side of the dynamic.

Karina Calver: Oh, for sure. I mean, I, I say him more because, I mean, I'm referring to us as the gender, right. But this little gender, you could be a guy or a girl. It doesn't matter. You could have issues and could be a woman, it doesn't matter.

Both genders play out where they are guarded and they could can treat the other person not in the best light because of their pain. That's not been addressed and that's not fair on the other person.

Emily Tan: I think that's such a, a key [00:10:00] reminder that's are we being fair to the other person? And in the action of that, in the process of that, are we being fair to ourselves?

Karina Calver: Right. This was happening to us and we're tolerating it, but if they were receiving it, so if, if in return they got the treatment that we were given out, that they were giving to us, you mean it was flipped around? They wouldn't, they wouldn't accept it. So why is it okay for us to have a lower standard?

Because if a guy was treated in the way that they're treating us, I'm just again, using this gender because us being woman. They'd be like "Hey! No! This is not okay!" Like whether it's disrespect, not intentionally, but it still is, it cannot be okay. I always feel, what are the key things that you look for in a relationship, and do you provide that as well?

If you do, then it's fair to have that standard for someone else to step up and provide that as well in the relationship, you gotta ask, what is it that I can show [00:11:00] up for? What can I offer in this relationship? And if I can offer that, it's fair for me to ask for the same in return.

Emily Tan: All's fair in love and war.

Karina Calver: Totally.

Emily Tan: And I'm glad you clarified all that, that it doesn't have to fall within a gender norm. However, it's hard for me to ignore that they are gender norms and they are roles that society has inflicted pressure upon, or we grew up within cultures and environments where the pressure is more and maybe more significant than others, and I think that's something really important for us to look at.

When I first started looking into advocating for men's work. I realized that it's, it's just not fair to assume that every man or every boy grew up with the same struggles and challenges. And the layers of nuances. Take us, for example, we were born and raised in the country where not everyone [00:12:00] looks exactly like us or exactly the same.

Yeah. And we've interacted with a lot of different people and in, in some way, there's a third culture involved, even when we grew up in a bicultural environment.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: So it's safe to say that not every man is gonna grow up feeling like they were not allowed to express themselves or not every man is gonna grow up thinking that they need to only do certain things to then be seen as a man.

So within your journey and doing men's work, what are the nuances that really bothered you along the way?

Karina Calver: Most of the time I'm only work with brown men. One of the things that I saw a whole lot of is the need, obviously to provide, right? There is a very strong need for men, especially for brown men. I can't speak for other cultures, so I'm gonna just focus on brown men, cuz that's what I know most is the need to provide.

And what that really just boils down to is financially being stable and that I can understand, but to the [00:13:00] point that that's all they understand, that their role is just that. And so the problem this brings is that they don't see a need to be emotionally connected as much, that that's not something that they need to tap into when in a relationship. So over the course of the years, what happens is if they're married or if they're in a relationship, it becomes a problem because then there is not just a huge gap between them and their partners, but also the partners starting to feel neglected. And so that's when everything starts to fall apart because they don't even understand that that's a requirement for them.

Growing up where suppression is is key. You don't talk about feelings. It comes across as being weak. So you just kind of like soldier on and you do your thing. And when you keep having that kind of attitude where you just have to go, all right, we'll just suppress and we just keep hustling through, [00:14:00] then everything else that's been going on has been bottled up and over time it will explode.

If it doesn't explode for you, it's gonna explode in the relationship. And that's still an explosion that needs to be addressed. So, that's very common.

Emily Tan: Do you feel like you can trust a man who says that they don't feel a need to explode?

Karina Calver: Yes and no. I have definitely seen that. I've seen men who don't feel the need to explode, but if they don't feel the need to explode, someone else around them is exploding.

Emily Tan: Good reminder.

Karina Calver: Right. So see, the thing is they have this very misconstrued concept of what it is to be masculine. It doesn't mean you shun your feminine side because we have both.

And so they think that they don't have to be emotional and connected. They feel that they don't have to express their feelings. So the longer you believe this misconstrued idea of what it means to be a man or to be masculine. Then whoever you're with, [00:15:00] will experience just one part of you. The go-getter provider, you, but not the soft, gentle emotionally available you, which is also should be a part of you, and so over a period of time, it's going to affect the relationship. You may not see it because you're completely okay just being the provider, being that strong alpha, but it's also toxic when you keep pushing everything down,

Emily Tan: How much stuff that do you have to do until that becomes kind of who you are?

When you were describing all of that, what came to mind was, I'm picturing. and, and again we'll go back to the men women example here and our experience as women.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm. .

Emily Tan: And we can only speculate the male experience cuz we've never experienced a male experience.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: But I imagine going to work, showing up for, to your male boss and your male peers, you can't help but feel like you don't have that permission to lean into feminine [00:16:00] qualities.

And when I say feminine qualities, I don't mean a feminine qualities. Soft skills that are hard and difficult to adopt and practice, and there's a reason why so many corporations invest a whole lot of money into hiring motivational coaches and professional coaches, executive leadership coaches, to teach you these soft skills.

Karina Calver: Isn't that interesting?

Emily Tan: That is. That is.

Karina Calver: That's crazy, right?

Emily Tan: Bewildering.

Karina Calver: Yeah. You innately have this, but because you have suppressed it for so long, , the dire need for this is now coming out, but it was so important for you to just climb up the ladder, right, to provide and to be whatever it is that you set your mind to be in terms of this corporate world.

Everything's soft, everything feminine. All these things became unimportant and over a period of time when it starts affecting [00:17:00] relationships, when it starts affecting your mental health, when it starts affecting you in a more tangible way, that's when you pay attention to it. So it, it's different for different people, right?

Depending on how long they've suppressed it, depending on the kind of childhood wounds they've had, what kind of upbringing they've had, how much of expression they saw growing up, what kind of partners they had before they were in this particular relationship, and how much permission they had or how much their partner was holding space for them.

All of these things are paramount in a guy's ability to lean into that kind of emotion.

Emily Tan: When you said, how can a partner hold space for them, for the person who hasn't done a lot of, hasn't done any maybe inner work or shadow work or work on themselves and asking themselves, the real questions, the tough questions, questions that stops them in their tracks.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: And [00:18:00] make them come clean to themselves.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: Make them confront their own honesty. But as partners, how should they hold space and what exactly can that look like?

Karina Calver: So when a guy is having a rough time, whether it's at work, but he just feels like he can't do this no more, like it's affecting his state of mind.

He's feeling maybe like a loser, like a failure, and you can see that it's getting to him. And as a partner, noticing that this is going through your, your husband's going through it, or your boyfriend's going through it, is being gentle about it and saying "Hey, whatever it is you're going through, I'm here. We can talk about it when you're ready. Or we can, I can just hold you if that's what makes you comfortable. But know that I believe in you. And you're gonna get through this, but I want you to know that it, it is safe for you to tell me whatever. You're never judged between you and I. It is completely okay that you show me [00:19:00] whatever it is that you wanna show me or tell me whatever it is that you wanna tell me at your time. When you're ready. I'm here to listen."

It is really just being gentle because remember, men don't see gentleness at all. They don't see it. They see, come on man. Let's do it. Whether it's at the gym. All right. Gimme five more reps. You go at work. It's due in five minutes. Come on, man. They see that gentleness.

They don't see it. So when you go home to a woman who is just like on your case, he's not gonna open up to her. Hell no, he's not. No matter what you think you're saying. He's like, how's your day? Yeah, it's all right. You don't look really good. Yeah, it was rough. Why was it rough? If you have that tone that's not holding space, he's not gonna tell you a word because your intention isn't [00:20:00] to be gentle and to truly be compassionate and listening to him.

So that has to do with you coming back to your feminine energy and you truly saying, I wanna hear you because I wanna connect with you. I wanna understand what's going with you because I wanna just connect with you. I wanna be there for you. And it doesn't mean we're solving problems, but that you can talk about it.

Emily Tan: That right there, it that sounds important. And it is important. What I'm hearing there is it's not just about the things that you say. It's not just that you told this person that, Hey, you can talk to me, but then your actions kind of go against it. And your actions being the tone you use, the non-verbal language, the expressions, expressions of contempt and, and maybe even the condescending nature that you bring, an agenda that you bring to the conversation and to the [00:21:00] approach.

Men's work is not really, does not solely fall on men's head.

Karina Calver: No

Emily Tan: It is within whatever interpersonal relationship that is, whether it's a parent child, whether it's a colleague, peer, neighbor, friendship, and intimate relationships. If we want the other person to be aware of what they're doing in their work, how are we showing up to that equation?

Karina Calver: Exactly. And I don't wanna put the burden on a romantic connection, right? But you have the most powerful dynamic there, the ability to really get him to open up because that's one of the most strongest relationships with that being so strong. If you know how to lean into your feminine energy and if you know how to be soft, if you know how to like, just hold him and say, honey, I, I'm with you on this.

I don't know [00:22:00] what's going on. And if you wanna share, I'm here to listen. But we got this. Okay, we got this. You got me. And together we're gonna sail through this and trust me, he is going to melt.

Emily Tan: I wish someone had taught this in high school or something, or during the years and ages, so we don't have to go through so many heartbreaks that seem to be catastrophic at that age.

Karina Calver: I'm with you on that. Wish they taught this in high school, or even actually, no, even in university would be pretty all right.

Emily Tan: Yeah. You know, at that age when you're more comfortable talking about these topics. I was gonna say maybe like, if this becomes normal in the household, especially growing up when as a kid you don't know any better, you're, you lean into the figures in your home to feel safe, to feel like you're being led on the path of exploration and growing into yourself.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: And how that ties into, look, not every man grows up in the same type of [00:23:00] household. And when we talk about the household not being a safe place to refer back to.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: For us to remember. Even that happens for all genders. So when we're talking to anyone who didn't grow up with the experience of a safe home and have safe memories. How can we show up for that person? And could you share your experience as well growing up so people know where you're coming from?

Karina Calver: Sure. So let me answer your first part of the question, right? How do we show up for someone who have, who didn't have a safe home growing up? We can show up for people provided they're willing to get vulnerable.

When they are ready to let that guard down and actually be open and naked emotionally about what it is they're feeling while you are ready to listen. But if they're not ready to talk about it, then you can't go anywhere. So that's [00:24:00] paramount that they need to be ready to acknowledge whatever it is that happened when they were a kid or whatever wounds that haven't been addressed.

And then, you know, in the course of their journey is to figure out what it is that they need, whether they need counseling, whether they need to start journaling, whether they need to talk about it more. That's for them to figure out as they go, but you cannot hold space if someone's not even willing to acknowledge for real, like what took place and what's constantly triggering them.

Time and time again, the ownership is on the person going through that pain. Only then can the other people around, you know, be gentle, be loving, be compassionate in actively listening to them, and that's huge in itself. But you can't really do more that you know, you, I am there for you, but I can't have you open up because I'm telling you to open up.

You have to be willing to do that because [00:25:00] knowing that opening up is actually going to help you in the long run. I'm not saying the work in opening up is easy. It's not, and I get it, but I'm here holding your hand through the process. But men are afraid, and the reason they're afraid is because they've never had to look within, they've never had to deal with soft skills and vulnerability.

So to, to suddenly dive into all those feelings and go into the flashback mode of what happened and how they felt they were not good enough, and how they felt that they have to overcompensate, that's not a good feeling to address. So what do they do? Let's just lock that, right? The more you lock it, you just cover it up with more stuff.

But at some point when someone else you come across is better than you and you feel threatened, it's going to trigger that very old, you know that that label that you have of [00:26:00] yourself, which is, I'm not good enough, and it will be so much bigger than it was. And it's gonna keep happening until you address it.

And I can relate to that because growing up, and it's not like I did not have any pleasant memories of my childhood, but I had a whole lot of experiences of not being pleasant. So I know what it's like to feel alone and not know how am I gonna come through the other end, and how am I gonna figure out, you know, what to do.

Or you just get lost cause you don't even know yourself. Right? And having a really rough childhood can affect so many parts of your life as an adult. So I can totally understand that. It could, it could make your relationships very difficult because you could be people pleasing or shutting down either one or running away because [00:27:00] getting close can be scary.

Because what if that person shuts me down? Cuz I was shut down when I was a kid. So what if that person leaves me? I better leave first. Or I'm not sure I'm good enough. Maybe I should just end it now. There's all these things that people show up in, in grown up relationships because of something that happened when they were a kid.

And that is actually trauma because trauma isn't about something catastrophic like a death or, or rape or whatever have you. Trauma can be something that, it could be just your parents is not being there for you when you're growing up and you had to always do things for yourself and so you felt unloved, but maybe they were constantly when they were around telling you what you just got 90 in your test or you know, things like that.

And that could stick big time. So you wonder why you [00:28:00] just keep going so hard, right now? And you have to get that promotion and you have to get this, and you have to get the best car and best because you feel you have to live up to some sort of label from your childhood that you have to be enough, whatever enough is.

Emily Tan: Well, one of my really good friends and I have been exploring this topic, I guess this realm, this umbrella term in the past kind of six months, and we've given each other permission to just drop in random thoughts and random rants and vents and just thought processes within our chat. And we call it the diary.

You drop it in and there's no need for the other person to respond. So it kind of removes the obligation there to think of, oh my God, how am I'm gonna show up for this person? But no, this person just wants to let it out and that's it. You don't have to do anything about that. I think it's really cool. And what we share in common is we grew up in the household, a Chinese family, typical Chinese family, where we feel like our worth [00:29:00] lays in our grades.

We had to come home with As and, and we have to continually achieve a certain position at work and we have to earn a certain amount to be able to, to, to go to our parents and, and kind of have that presentation. And here's my presentation, here's my portfolio. Love me, love me.

Karina Calver: Let my grades show that I'm deserving of love.

Emily Tan: That is not uncommon at all. That is so common with a lot of people around the world who grew up with that kind of like when you talk about, you know, with kids as, as we grow up, we don't really know exactly which point in life, that something might have happened that would fallen in the, in the, in the bucket of, of trauma because to some people.

They would think, well, you had a good life growing up. You know, you, you had a roof over your head, you were not poor. You never got beaten up. , you were fine growing up. And actually that's something I heard from one of my parents in terms of, [00:30:00] well, I'll just go and say my dad.

My dad didn't understand why I was going through a lot of things. Cause for him and to what he can see. And we had a really like in-depth conversation about this. To him, what he could see is you were fine growing up, you didn't have a traumatic childhood, you know, we didn't beat you. We, we, well, I mean, your mom kind of came to you sometimes, of course, but you know, which Chinese family didn't have that kind of situation growing up back in the eighties, nineties.

And I had to tell him about all the other things that happened out of the home. That contributed to traumatic experiences or to experiences that were pretty significant, especially at that age.

Karina Calver: Definitely.

Emily Tan: And I, I, I think maybe that's also one of the contributing factors on why, as we are adulting in the process of adulting, we, we recognize and see and experience a lot more friction with our parents.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: And in that dynamic, that also has a tie in [00:31:00] with how we approach our intimate relationship. When we don't even know how to communicate with someone that we spent all of our lives with.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: How are we able to find skills and, and have practice finding common ground and, and communication skills to communicate with someone we want to make a life with and want to do life with.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: Perhaps as women, we have a lot more permission and practice to talk to each other, like just how we're having this conversation right now. For some people it's gonna sound heavy. It's gonna sound like, yo, this is not dinner conversation. Can we talk about movies and weather? Please? Let's, let's not talk about this.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: But I think for you and I, it, it, it feels like second nature. It feels like this is what's important to me, and it's true to heart, and we can talk about this with passion, but with many men, maybe they don't feel like they have enough exposure to practice. Now I wanna talk about those men who don't have practice in the past or minimal practice.

Karina Calver: [00:32:00] Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: And it's natural that we feel some type of way that we're not good at something right from the start. Typical, right. Yeah. I'm gonna learn this, I'm gonna learn basketball, I'm not good at it, and I suck. Oh, I don't wanna continue it anymore.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: But if you don't practice, you're never gonna get good at it or you're never gonna feel comfortable with it.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: In your experience personally as well as professionally?

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: How can someone kind of get over this hurdle of not being good enough in the beginning.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: Of a skill of this practice to then be able to finally walk forward from not being good enough to, oh wow, okay. I'm getting comfortable at this, with this now.

And feeling less triggered now. Now there's more freedom, now there's more relaxation, and now there's more confidence in ourselves.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: to be honest?

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm. That's a really good question. Unlike a sport or an interest, you [00:33:00] can live without it. You cannot live without your soft skills. You cannot live without your feminine energy.

It's a part of who you are. You can ignore it, but it's gonna come and bite you in the ass. The fact that you can have relationship issues, the fact that you are blowing up and getting mad for no damn no reason or for really minute stuff. Isn't this a sign that something is not being looked at? So it isn't about being good at it, but it's the fact that we need to understand that this is something we need.

As men, you need to be able to know that I will suck at this in the beginning, and that's okay. Well, no one's grading you. This is, you're not gonna get a report card saying, man, you got A, for looking at your soft skills today. Or you'll learn something about your feminine side, Uhuh. You ain't getting that.

What you are getting is the [00:34:00] ability to know how you feel and being able to label it for yourself. So the moment you're getting angry, you don't have to actually blow up. But you notice, okay, I'm feeling angry. What's brewing this anger? What's stirring it up before it actually starts exploding and it helps you manage yourself better, your relationships better.

It's a, it's, it's a success tool. So the question here isn't about what do I need or how do I stage it so that I get better at it? But it's realizing how important it is so that you can be your best version. Because without you tapping into your feminine side and exploring vulnerability, you are shutting down a part of you, half of you.

And do you not deserve to know all of you? The good, the bad, the ugly? Why label something as [00:35:00] bad when it's a part of you? Emotions are not bad. It just is. If you're feeling angry, you're feeling angry, acknowledge versus act out. They're two very different things. Acknowledge that you're feeling mad. If you wanna act it out, go punch a bag, go to the boxing gym.

You're feeling angry. Get out to the mountain and scream your head off. Go do that.

Emily Tan: That's something I actually really wanna do.

Karina Calver: Right? It's fair. You can continue living life ignoring that part of you until it's too late where you've sabotaged so many relationships and you wondered, okay, why did that person leave me? And why did this happen and why did that happen?

And you might even go on blaming everyone else, and that's fine. That's fine because there will come a time that you will have to deal with it, because if something is constantly occurring again and again and again, you have to stop and [00:36:00] pause and wonder what's really going on here.

Emily Tan: That's gonna be a tough moment and a very confronting, maybe even shocking moment.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: I, I relate to that.

Karina Calver: Scary, scary as hell.

Emily Tan: I actually went through a phase, a stage, a phase, a chapter in my life where I thought that, you know what? All men are the same. They're incapable of being loyal and faithful. Just find the one that you're happy hanging out with.

Call him your companion and just call it that. I, I was 21 and I was already settling with this mindset. That's why I got married when I was 23 cuz I was with this mindset.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: Like my really good friend, the one I mentioned that we, we have this diary practice. He was actually the first one who confronted me and asked me, okay, so you telling me that this boyfriend cheat on you before and that boyfriend cheat on you before and, and that guy and now this one again as well.[00:37:00]

What's the common denominator there? Specifically? Who's the common denominator there? Oh my God. I remember feeling attacked right away. Yeah. But at the same time, like, you know what, oh my God, you are so right. What is it? Now, I could have gone two ways, right? I could ruminate, what's wrong with me? Why am I always attracting this?

But that doesn't sound constructive or productive.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .

Emily Tan: Instead, you can go the other way and reflect on the behavior.

Karina Calver: Mm.

Emily Tan: And the energy that you brought to the table

Karina Calver: mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: If you brought the energy to the table thinking that he's just gonna cheat on me, you're telling yourself that you're preempting the future because you want to mitigate the amount of harm and pain

Karina Calver: mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: That is gonna bring you if and when that happens.

Karina Calver: Mm.

Emily Tan: The other person is not immune to this. We're humans and, and innately, naturally, we can sense each other's energy even without saying a single word.

Karina Calver: 100%.

Emily Tan: So unconsciously I was already sabotaging all of [00:38:00] my relationships.

Karina Calver: You were actually bringing that to your world.

Emily Tan: Exactly.

Karina Calver: Crazy. Right?

Emily Tan: I think that's something that might be worth looking into and checking back on as I'm going through this journey of, I'm gonna put everything in air quotes here. Awakening.

Karina Calver: Mm-hmm.

Emily Tan: Healing. All of these words that are triggering for some people, but are so, it resonates with some people on a deep level and it brings peace and calm to those words. The bottom of this, there is some form of forgiveness that we first have to apply for ourselves.

Karina Calver: Yes, I was gonna say, fuck yes. . .

Emily Tan: Yeah. We can say, fuck yes here. I'm already gonna tick this ass though. It's not suitable for kids. Do not listen to this episode when you're in the car with kids, unless you want them to, you know, be real and ask you a whole bunch of questions.

And when I found out that your TED Talk was around forgiveness, I thought to myself, yes, this is [00:39:00] exactly why I need to talk to Karina I would like you to expand on the important message that you shared on that stage.

Karina Calver: It's funny because I spent about a year, if not more, before and after that, so maybe two years really focusing on forgiveness on my personal journey.

But even when anyone ever invited me to speak, it was always about forgiveness because it was something that was so profoundly important in my life. I couldn't stress I, not that it's not important right now, but there was a point in my life. I really wanted to integrate forgiveness into an episode that was once upon a time unforgivable, and the moment I was able to forgive, I was like, man, I gotta talk about forgiveness all the time.

Everyone needs to understand, you gotta forgive. It's the way to go.

Emily Tan: Spread the gospel girl, spread the gospel.

Karina Calver: Right? [00:40:00] I'm, I'm gospeling this everywhere. And so when I was asked by HKU to do this TED Talk, I said, I only wanna talk about forgiveness. When I drafted my speech for them. And, you know, we had to do all these rehearsals and whatnot, and they were blown away.

But it's not about, you know, it's more about the content than, than than anything else. Right? Because when you talk about forgiving yourself, oh God yes. Because sometimes, we punish ourselves far more than we should. You know, we beat ourselves over and over again about something that went wrong, something small, something big.

But we keep repeating it in our heads. Oh my God, why did I do that? I'm so crazy. I shouldn't have, that's so stupid. I will run it again and again. That's not helping, is it? And that's a sign of not forgiving yourself. And I went through that where I didn't forgive me. [00:41:00] But more importantly is I didn't forgive my father. At one point in my life, I never thought that was important until I realized in order to live a liberated happy life, to feel love in, in all its glory, I needed to forgive my dad, and I did not, you know, bef prior to that realization, I did not see the connection. And the connection is this, right? When you let pain hold you back so much so that you can't really be in the present moment.

Meaning if someone talks about a sort of event and it triggers that wound, then you're stuck. You're not really in the present moment, and I didn't wanna be that person anymore. I didn't want people to talk about the events of my past, which was very traumatic. That it would affect my present moment. [00:42:00] And because I didn't want that, I knew I had to forgive.

So that was the journey I went on is learning how to forgive the very person who destroyed any possibility, any possibility of me feeling normal, sane, happy as a kid, and coming out the other end of this whole forgiveness journey. And it's not like I knew when that happened because people think, oh, you're gonna get up one day and just like, yay, I'm all good.

And it's not like that, right? With anything, we are on a journey of inner work. You just don't, it's not linear, so you don't actually know until you wake up one day and, and you're going back your day and someone brings up your father and you don't feel nothing, you don't feel the triggers anymore. Your heart's fine.

You know, it's still, it's still happy. It's still loving. And they're like, oh, okay. I'm not like, oh, [00:43:00] I can't believe, you know, like I wasn't getting pissed. I wasn't getting angry, but I was just, I was cool. I was calm and I'm like, oh my God, something has happened here. And I had such joy having that realization, but such calmness at the same time.

And that's when I know I reached that aha moment where the stuff of the past. For those that are listening who don't know, I'm a rape survivor and the perpetrator was my father, and this went on for over a decade. So to say that it ruined my childhood, it in a big part of my childhood is an understatement.

Coming out the other end and just feeling, you know, like just, just not just relieved, but like, damn, I actually feel okay. Like nothing's happening man. to test this out even further, I must be crazy. But I did, I actually texted my father and I said, cause I hadn't [00:44:00] spoken to him for years. And I said I would like us to talk.

And I said just fyi it, I'm not gonna be screaming my head off and getting mad at you because, which I had in the past. And I said, let me know when it's a good time to call you. So I did. I called him and we spoke. And I told him I forgive them. And he cried and cried like I've never heard. You know?

And that for me was, was good. Not that he cried, but because I also believe in death, a part of me really, really integrates Buddhist teachings. And so one of the things about death is really, or about Buddhism, it's about understanding that death can happen at any point, right? I do not want him or me to be at the death bed thinking about what ifs.

Thinking about, did she forgive me or me thinking, should I have forgiven him or anything of that sort, [00:45:00] right, whatever. So, because I live in this concept of death can happen at any point, I don't wanna carry any kind of pain in my heart. So whoever I feel has done me wrong or I've done them wrong, you know, I, I wanna patch up and I believe I have.

And those that have, you know, drifted apart, that's a different story altogether. But with him in particular, there was a, there was a huge need for it, and that call was very, very cathartic for him and for me. And that was kind of the turning point even more.

Emily Tan: I felt like I just went on the journey with you. I had to mute my mic cuz I was sniffling.

Karina Calver: Mmm

Emily Tan: Thank you first of all, for being so real about that. What I heard and what I felt so much power there [00:46:00] and so much power that you regained and so much power that you now exude and you embody. And this power is not the power to dominate. The power you have on how you manage and how you want the energy to flow through you.

You speak about not wanting certain things when the time comes, we're humans, we are gonna be on our deathbeds. For some people it will come sooner. I, I know how that is, and I relate to you on, on my deathbed with cancer. Yes. My first thought was what are, what are my relationships like? It wasn't at work.

It wasn't with anything else. It was, I want my family. I don't care what they've done, I don't care. I don't care about anything that we've been through. I just want them to hear your approach, forgiveness in this way. It's very empowering for me and inspiring for me to hear, and I really hope that whoever's listening right now is that [00:47:00] you allow yourself to, to feel what Karina had just shared here, to allow yourself to imagine.

What it could be like if you just entertain the idea of forgiving whoever is consuming so much energy in your brain, in your heart right now.

Karina Calver: Yeah, that's that's key, right? Because when I, one of the things I remember seeing when I ended my TED talk was, as you leave today, make that one phone call. You know, pick up that phone and tell that person - I'm sorry if they've done you wrong. If you've done them wrong, whatever it is. Oh, I love you. Like reconnect because it's not worth it. I'm not saying ... It's very different from having no boundaries. That's very different.

So I still have my boundaries in check with my father and with people who I feel I need to keep [00:48:00] certain distance. But that's very different from forgiveness. Because there is one level of being mature and being wise, and another one's just being stupid and saying, okay, I've forgiven you. Now you can come back into my world and do whatever you want.

No, that's, that's just being pathetic. That's being dumb. So you gotta wisen up a little bit. Someone who's hurt you, they may not have changed, you've evolved. Okay, good for you. They could have, they could still be the same. You don't wanna carry this for you cuz you wanna live the best life that you can live.

So you let this go. Now, you don't have to tell the person, you forgive them if you don't have the opportunity, if they've passed on, but in your heart space, you know, when you have truly forgiven a person and that you can do, if you wanna reach out and let them know, you can do that too. I've done that with pe. ...a lot of people, even after my father, that I felt may have felt [00:49:00] hurt. You know, I'm, I'm divorced. And my ex-husband was an amazing person, but just not the person for me. But I know our divorce hurt him. I know it did. And now we're great friends, but we're only great friends now. It's because we were able to work through that.

And I always said to him that I want nothing more than for us to be like a family. But as a sense, like you're still family for me, but we're, we're just not a couple anymore. And if you can believe that enough in your, in your gut, in your heart, you believe that so much, you can create that because your ashes will flow, will follow what you believe.

And it should, because I have a very high standard of life, meaning it's not about the material life, but I have high standard of myself. [00:50:00] How I show up in the world is important to me, and that's the level of integrity I carry. I'm not concerned about how you show up cause that's on you and how I, how I inv how I am involved in your life is it's, that is, it all depends on our connection, right?

But how I show up in my life, I have to answer to. So I'm really concerned about making sure that I don't carry resentment, that I don't carry pain and anger, cuz it doesn't do me any good. So if I've got stuff I need to sort out, I better sort it out. And that's exactly going back to the point of why do I work with men?

I was hurt by men. The very person that's supposed to hold space and love you, unconditionally. Hurt me like there's no tomorrow. [00:51:00] And it doesn't mean that because I was raped. No. It simply means that I feel as a, as a woman and as a, as a counselor, that I wanna teach men that love how to love, what it means to love, what it means to be vulnerable, and how you can do this so freely and so in such a safe manner.

Because if we understand this, the chances of us suppressing or, or having, you know, seeing violence or whatever have you, will definitely be minimized because we're not being understood, we're not being loved, and that's why there's a backlash in a negative way, mental health, that relationships, high divorce, more violence, more addiction, because men don't have an outlet.

They don't know that they have an outlet. So I feel that when there are enough women who come together, [00:52:00] but also men that come together to really support men, it can change the world. , it sounds really utopian, but it can change the world.

Emily Tan: And all it takes is one person to exemplify that within that network, within that circle, to then incept the idea with other people within the circle. The ripple effect as well.

Karina Calver: Exactly, and it happens. It totally happens.

Emily Tan: Thank you for describing and elaborating on how we can look at men's work in a more holistic manner. It's not just a black and white situation, which is the case in a very masculine, dominant environment.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: Just show me black and white. I don't need to see the gray area.

Karina Calver: Yeah.

Emily Tan: Show me the index of a book. Tell me the, the key points. I don't need to read the fluff. One last one that I hope for you to expand on, and that is if [00:53:00] you don't feel like you can connect with the word love and maybe your thought process is, I don't even know what that is, I don't know what it looks like, I don't know if I've ever experienced that.

Karina Calver: Sure.

Emily Tan: How do I even find ways to connect with that? Or can I use a different word?

Karina Calver: Compassion is love, care, kindness, right? They're all love. They're all different forms of it. So when someone's being kind to you, it's showing love. When someone is compassionately listening to you, that's love, right? So there are different forms of love that we all carry out in different ways, and that in itself is love.

So you don't have to. And I think yes, love has, it's such, it could be seen as so heavy and it could be seen as so beautiful. It depends on, on, again, your perception, right? [00:54:00] And if you find love so heavy or just like, man, it doesn't exist, it's, it's such a fairytale, then maybe kindness and how are you being kind to yourself so that you can let all of this stuff go? And that's important.

Emily Tan: Thank you so much, Karina. Thank you. This is a lot, I think, for anyone to process, but I really hope that each of us, including myself, will take some time after this chat to gift ourselves a moment of reflection and some me time in your words.

Karina Calver: Yes, yes.

Emily Tan: Reflection is me time.

Karina Calver: Indeed, indeed. And it's so important to reflect, right? It's like, am I who I want to be? And I don't mean it in the sense of in the outside world, who do I want to be in the inside world? And that's something I always ask me. It's like, am I [00:55:00] a better me? Am I kinder, more loving, more patient? Because if we're not growing that way, then what is this life for? It's not, I don't believe that it is just to make money and be success. That's just a byproduct. The kind of connections you build, the kind of heart connections you build, or the real raw connections you build is what this is about. And through that connection, if you're, you know, making money and becoming success successful, that's great. But it's success is just, it's the, you know, it's the aftermath. It's not the focus point. And when people focus on the money, that's where they've got it all. .

Emily Tan: Ooh. I think that's gonna be another conversation. Finding what you really want to focus on, not what you should focus on.

Karina Calver: No...

Emily Tan: But more of what feels right for you.

Karina Calver: Do you feel right about something? You dive in.

Emily Tan: Thank you, Karina. [00:56:00]

Karina Calver: Thank you.

Emily Tan: Really appreciate your time.

Karina Calver: Thank you.